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iPhone 3G Owners Not Eligible for Full Subsidized Upgrade To iPhone 3G S

Submitted by Michael Johnston on June 8, 2009 - 3:24pm.
in

A move that's likely going to infuriate quite a few of you, Apple (or more likely, AT&T) has decided to not pass on the subsidized iPhone 3G S price to current iPhone 3G owners. For iPhone 3G folks, a 16GB iPhone 3G S will cost $599.00 and a 32GB iPhone 3G S will cost $699.00. Original iPhone owners seem to be eligible for the subsidized pricing.

There's been no official word from Apple regarding the move, but Apple's website indicates that 3G owners are ineligible during in the iPhone purchasing process. See the image below.

Because current iPhone 3G owners purchased their phones at a subsidized price, the carriers need to make back that money. For most customers, that means waiting several months to become eligible for a subsidized price. If you want to get the phone now, you've gotta pay for the full price of the hardware.

Other iPhone 3G customers are being offered $200 off the full retail price if they've had their contract for 6 months or more.

Submitted by utp504 on June 8, 2009 - 3:32pm.
Yeah, I got the same numbers when I tried reserving one and everything. MacRumors thing said different numbers. However, when you read the thing on Apples Buy iPhone site, it says upgrade to a 3gS from another phone and doesnt have one to specify upgrading from a previous iPhone maybe they will fix this and allow us to upgrade.


EDIT: I posted this in a new post on the 2nd page, but I wanted to put it up front so more would see.


IMPORTANT

I had thought of something else before and may have posted it. Also, this may only apply to US AT&T, I am not sure but that is the only one I can check.

Did you read the entire page carefully when checking what your price would be on Apple's site?????? I asks if you are an existing customer looking to replace A PHONE on your account to and iPhone. It does not specifficaly have a check box indicating that you own the previous iPhone 3G. It is probably checking what your price would be if you upgrading from your existing contract, and not taking in what phone anyone owns at all.
Therefore, check with your local Apple store around the weeks end. Apple may be allowing previous iPhone 3G owners to get the subsidized price. Why wouldnt they? They would get more sales since the majority of people looking to get the new iPhone is current iPhone owners. Also, AT&T would be getting more sales as well.
I really think that they will allow us previous owners to take advantage of the subsidized price. But as I said before, it does not ask if you want to replace an iPhone with the new iPhone, it asks if you want to replace A PHONE with an iPhone.

Varriable price

Submitted by emerrill on June 8, 2009 - 4:08pm.
My wife's upgrade prices actually show as 299/399/499. She got the phone a few weeks after the 3G came out. I wonder if the price changes based on how long since you got the phone.


Also - it makes perfect sense that it wouldnt be subsidized. Owners of the 3G have not paid off their first subsidy yet (~18mos). A subsidy it more of a 'mortgage', where you are paying off some of the phone cost over the term of the contract.

Submitted by utp504 on June 8, 2009 - 4:11pm.
Mine says I have to pay the 599/699 and am not eligible until 07/14/09. I purchased the 3G iPhone on the first day it released (standing inline and all) its just weird cuz you say your wife got hers a few weeks later and i got mine earlier and she is eligible for cheaper price. I dont get it but who knows at this point LOL. Also, I talked to someone from Apple and they said they weren't sure. I also called my local Apple store and they said that they aren't sure either but they will most likely know with in the next few days about the upgrade pricing.

There's Hope

Submitted by xxporkxsodaxx on June 8, 2009 - 4:18pm.
Picture 3

Submitted by Shutterrelease on June 8, 2009 - 4:21pm.
Bum deal. Man these things are expensive

Submitted by MacDan on June 8, 2009 - 4:23pm.
This sucks I got my 3G on launch day and it says 12/12/09
wtf AT&T?? My dreams just got shattered :'(

Submitted by foamysking on June 8, 2009 - 4:30pm.
well ive contacted att and all they have done is hung up on me after a few min two different times (great customer support) So i contacted apple and so far they know nothing at this time. Now last year at this time i was working for att and if i remember right it took about a week or so before a document came out stating that if you had the previous iphone for a certain amount of time you were eligible to upgrade to a 3g for the upgrade pricing.

Submitted by utp504 on June 8, 2009 - 4:37pm.

wondering why I can't upgrade for the right price?

Submitted by monts on June 8, 2009 - 5:57pm.
So, I'm a little bit more peeved at AT&T because I'm still on the first gen. phone that I purchased back in August of '07 and they won't let me upgrade to a 3G S until April of '10 for the promo rate... what gives with that?

I couldn't upgrade to the 3G either, so I waited patiently for this next one and now I can't upgrade... AT&T blows!

I'm getting the 299/399/499 rates.

Submitted by utp504 on June 8, 2009 - 6:00pm.
You have had to of changed you data or minutes around at some point. Because an ATT contract is 2 years and if you bought in august of 07 your contract would be up in Aug 09. when you change your amount of minutes or text or anything, you agree to a new 2-year contract most of the time. So, if you are eligible in April 10, that means you probably changed something on your contract around July or August of 08

Submitted by monts on June 8, 2009 - 6:01pm.
I did... I upgraded my minutes. So, because I add more minutes I can't upgrade a phone?! AT&T is a joke.

Submitted by utp504 on June 8, 2009 - 6:03pm.
Yeah, I know. They usually tell you somewhere that your contract will be upgraded for another 2 years when you do this. As far as I've ever known, this has always been the case because Ive been with cingular before they merged and Ive always heard that they do this.

Submitted by brandon89 on June 8, 2009 - 6:20pm.
wish they cared about the people more instead of robbing us now i have to save for a new one

Submitted by monts on June 8, 2009 - 6:28pm.
so i talked with AT&T over the phone and they gave me the upgrade price on the phone and said I'd need to go into the store to order it and get the upgrade price since it's not reflected on the website.

He said your cheapest options would be web/store/customer service in that order, but customer service cannot sell an iphone so the store is my last chance...

Submitted by utp504 on June 8, 2009 - 6:33pm.
I always go to the store anyway... And I am betting that when we get closer to the release they will say we can all get the subsidized price.

Submitted by Stephen007 on June 8, 2009 - 6:55pm.
Another concern is if I decide to pay the $399 to get the lowest 3G S they re-up my contract for 2 more years. That means I'll be out the $399 and I'll have to go thru the same bullshit next time an upgrade comes out.

Submitted by o-matic on June 8, 2009 - 7:28pm.
What about O2 in the UK?

Submitted by southbxinclt on June 8, 2009 - 8:36pm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monts View Post
I did... I upgraded my minutes. So, because I add more minutes I can't upgrade a phone?! AT&T is a joke.

that's weird because I got my iphone 3G on july 14th, the day after release, I changed my plan about 2 months ago and when I did the lil upgrade option, it gave me the 299/399/499 with an upgrade eligible date of july 14th 2009... so I don't know what they did to you, but they didn't do it to me

Submitted by muchospanish on June 8, 2009 - 9:32pm.
I love my 3G and couldn't wait to see what was coming out today. No surprises and, although I'd love a better camera and video, voice dialing is okay, I will definitely wait until next year to upgrade. Nothing so compelling this time around. More exciting is the $99 price.

Dan

Submitted by foamysking on June 8, 2009 - 9:39pm.
well i got my 3g july 11th they are telling me 399/499 or wait till december wtf and they dont know jack when they will enable mms

Submitted by Beast on June 9, 2009 - 12:51am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foamysking View Post
well i got my 3g july 11th they are telling me 399/499 or wait till december wtf and they dont know jack when they will enable mms
MMS should be enabled with the 3.0 update on June 17th.


Well, I still have my day 1 phone. I got the $199 price, no problem. It'll be delivered on the 19th!

Submitted by utp504 on June 9, 2009 - 1:06am.
They will probably change the pricing eligibility in a few days and let us know. As for MMS, probably July or August since they said late summer.

Submitted by MaulerX on June 9, 2009 - 1:50am.
This is ridiculous. By the time we are eligible for the subsidized price,
the iPhone 4GZ will be out. When the Zune HD comes out, Apple will answer
to compete with the OLED screen and we'll be f***ed all over again.

O2 uk

Submitted by rorycfc on June 9, 2009 - 7:26am.
http://shop.o2.co.uk/update/internet.html
http://shop.o2.co.uk/update/paymonth.html
as you can see from these sites
O2 is really looking to do their customers from behind with these prices
the tethering on top of a contract is astronomically expensive.
i wouold think at&t will be looking to do the same in the us,
i would hope that soon 3GS will be jailbroken and the hackers i have so much love for will be able to 'trick' the network into thinking the iphone is browsing, when your actually on the pc
we can only hope!
RorZ

Submitted by wannatalk on June 9, 2009 - 8:47am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by o-matic View Post
What about O2 in the UK?
I called them this morning and the iPhone CS guy said that altho this 'could' change O2 have said that existing iPhone3G customers will have to wait till the last month of their contract before they can upgrade.

Existing iPhone customers can upgrade straight away if they are out of their original contract.

I'm wondering, do we think the exclusivity contract might be coming up for review and AT&T and O2 are basically stinging the 3G adopters by doing this? Make us pay full price for the phone/take out a second phone then announce early next year that there is another carrier coming online?

Either way, I'm not being left without an iPhone3G[S]. I will be having one and no one at O2 will stop me!!!!!!

And as for the tethering, at those prices, you're as well getting the mobile broadband instead, esp as they're giving cashback thru the cashback sites!!!

Submitted by wannatalk on June 9, 2009 - 8:59am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannatalk View Post
I called them this morning......
Looks like the anger has made it to Rory at the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technolog..._the_fans.html

I am annoyed, but then, I signed up to an 18 month contract and O2 did give me and everyone else the chance to jump out of the contract into another last time.

I guess I'll have to weigh up which is better, keeping the two phones running or buying out of the contract. I guess I've got a week to decide!!!

Submitted by utp504 on June 9, 2009 - 9:01am.
I just thought of something. It would be cheaper if people paid the like $200 fee and cancelled their AT&T contract, and then opened a new contract with buying the iPhone 3GS. At least it would be cheaper for some that show they have to pay $600 or $700, like me.

Submitted by utp504 on June 9, 2009 - 9:24am.
IMPORTANT

I had thought of something else before and may have posted it. Also, this may only apply to US AT&T, I am not sure but that is the only one I can check.

Did you read the entire page carefully when checking what your price would be on Apple's site?????? I asks if you are an existing customer looking to replace A PHONE on your account to and iPhone. It does not specifficaly have a check box indicating that you own the previous iPhone 3G. It is probably checking what your price would be if you upgrading from your existing contract, and not taking in what phone anyone owns at all.
Therefore, check with your local Apple store around the weeks end. Apple may be allowing previous iPhone 3G owners to get the subsidized price. Why wouldnt they? They would get more sales since the majority of people looking to get the new iPhone is current iPhone owners. Also, AT&T would be getting more sales as well.
I really think that they will allow us previous owners to take advantage of the subsidized price. But as I said before, it does not ask if you want to replace an iPhone with the new iPhone, it asks if you want to replace A PHONE with an iPhone.

iPhone 3G S

Submitted by thuggedout on June 9, 2009 - 9:42am.
Yes its great to have a new iPhone and just like any other phone purchase or upgrade; if you recently upgraded or received a phone at a discounted rate you have to wait a periid a time before you can get another phone at a discounted rate. So my question is why do people think the rules should be different for the iphone. I have always been with att&t and even before the iPhone this has been the rule. When my treo broke I had to wait until I was eligible for a discounted rate or pay some ridiculous price for a new one. I can only chalk up people complaints about paying a high price for the iPhone because they want it badly. Maybe because the state of the economy the rules should be bent and maybe not. Should at&t only drop this rule for the iPhone or all phones. They are a business and businesses are about making money and if this is a loophole that they can exploit then they will, as you would if this was your company. So save the complaining and either wait till your eligible for the discounted rate or just pay the price that was quoted to you for the greatest phone on earth.

Submitted by foamysking on June 9, 2009 - 9:58am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuggedout View Post
Yes its great to have a new iPhone and just like any other phone purchase or upgrade; if you recently upgraded or received a phone at a discounted rate you have to wait a periid a time before you can get another phone at a discounted rate. So my question is why do people think the rules should be different for the iphone. I have always been with att&t and even before the iPhone this has been the rule. When my treo broke I had to wait until I was eligible for a discounted rate or pay some ridiculous price for a new one. I can only chalk up people complaints about paying a high price for the iPhone because they want it badly. Maybe because the state of the economy the rules should be bent and maybe not. Should at&t only drop this rule for the iPhone or all phones. They are a business and businesses are about making money and if this is a loophole that they can exploit then they will, as you would if this was your company. So save the complaining and either wait till your eligible for the discounted rate or just pay the price that was quoted to you for the greatest phone on earth.
Well first they did it before last year if you had the original iphone before November you were eligible to upgrade to the 3g secondly if you are an att iphone customer your monthly bill is aprox $30 higher than the average att user at almost all levels. So it makes business sense to keep us under contract for as long as possible so if every year we are upgrading and getting a new phone we are always under their contract but when they make us wait as you can see in this thread we get upset an it makes att far more likely to loose customers when the iphone goes to another carrier.

So to summarize they have given it to us before and it keeps their customers happy and in some ways it helps to endear them to the tech savvy crowd.

Submitted by xmax21 on June 9, 2009 - 11:07am.
AT&T have been holding Apple back from the beginning. It even came out today during the WWDC, everyone laughing everytime ATT was mention. All ATT wants is your money!!!!!!!!! Why do they only offer a 2-year contract and not 1-year?! They don't even care about their exiting customers. They know we are locked for two years so why give us a price break?!!?!? I'm tired of writing about this &$#$* company......

Submitted by MonkeyZero on June 9, 2009 - 1:41pm.
A couple of things, first, at least they are not making you wait the whole 18 months or 2 years to qualify for the upgrade price. I just got my 3G in Feb and the buyiphone site tells me I only have to wait until Feb 2010 to upgrade at the cheaper price so there's that.

My second thing, though, is why can't they just let everyone get the same price on any phone at any time? If they are already requiring a renewal of the two year contract upon upgrade doesn't it make sense that they could sell a boat load more units by NOT gouging their existing customers? Maybe it's just that I have a backwards sense of business in thinking that you need customers to stay afloat but it seems to me that carriers see it the exact opposite way. It seems that they are saying" let's impliment a strategy that gets new customers all the time so that when our existing customers realize how shady we are and leave we'll have a back up group to continue to rip off."
And so continues the cycle.

AT&T has absolutely the most expensive plans of any carrier I've ever used and I'm sick of it. What I could pay $99 a month for on Sprint I would have to pay $175 OR MORE on AT&T.

I am seriously considering paying the $200 to end my contract and getting a Pre. This has got to stop.

LOOPHOLE?

Submitted by machero on June 9, 2009 - 2:38pm.
when the 3G was initially scheduled for release date, there was a nifty loophole you could use to qualify yourself for an upgrade at the advertised price of 200 bux. iphone alley itself found it and posted it here http://www.iphonealley.com/tips-and-...one-3g-upgrade


its quite possible in my opinion that this could very well work with the new iphone 3G S. all you would need to do is find someone with an original iphone seeing as they are the ones who are currently eligible for the upgrade and place your SIM card in theres and follow the instructions at the link above. i haven't tried it yet, but it would say its worth a shot..

Submitted by MonkeyZero on June 9, 2009 - 3:02pm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by machero View Post
when the 3G was initially scheduled for release date, there was a nifty loophole you could use to qualify yourself for an upgrade at the advertised price of 200 bux. iphone alley itself found it and posted it here http://www.iphonealley.com/tips-and-...one-3g-upgrade


its quite possible in my opinion that this could very well work with the new iphone 3G S. all you would need to do is find someone with an original iphone seeing as they are the ones who are currently eligible for the upgrade and place your SIM card in theres and follow the instructions at the link above. i haven't tried it yet, but it would say its worth a shot..
Not bashing your response, as the information is certainly appreciated, but my bicker is why should I have to do that? As a customer of AT&T it seems ludicrous that I (or we) should have to rely on a loophole to get the services that we deserve in the first place.
Does anyone have any insight or thoughts on what I mentioned about the functionality missing though?
Thank you Machero, I'm not discounting your idea at all. I do appreciate it.

i understand

Submitted by machero on June 9, 2009 - 3:06pm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyZero View Post
Not bashing your response, as the information is certainly appreciated, but my bicker is why should I have to do that? As a customer of AT&T it seems ludicrous that I (or we) should have to rely on a loophole to get the services that we deserve in the first place.
Does anyone have any insight or thoughts on what I mentioned about the functionality missing though?
Thank you Machero, I'm not discounting your idea at all. I do appreciate it.
yes i do understand where you're coming from. i dont think AT&T is very helpful to its customers and that it enabled people to get an upgrade price when the iphone 3g came out, yet this year they wont allow it. so my post was more so to inform people of last years loophole rather than bash on AT&T. i do feel your sympathy though. i was just trying to see if someone is willing to try it so the rest of us can enjoy the new pricing

Submitted by MonkeyZero on June 9, 2009 - 3:11pm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by machero View Post
i was just trying to see if someone is willing to try it so the rest of us can enjoy the new pricing
And with that I 100% agree. If anyone can figure out a way to keep them from scalping all of us I'm all for it too!

Submitted by utp504 on June 9, 2009 - 10:55pm.
I may just try that because my mom has my old original iPhone and I may try it from hers. MAYBE

Submitted by utp504 on June 9, 2009 - 11:37pm.
Anyone else get the email from Apple titled "Introducing the next iPhone."?????

If so, I read it and read the fine print as well. This was at the bottom next to the * mark:

*Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold separately to qualified customers; credit check required; must be 18 or older. For non-qualified customers, including existing AT&T customers who want to upgrade from another phone or replace an iPhone 3G, the price with a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), $599 (16GB), or $699 (32GB). Visit www.wireless.att.com for eligibility information. In CA, MA, and RI, sales tax is collected on the unbundled price of iPhone.


Apparently it does for sure include iPhone 3G owners, because I posted and had been thinking that it may change since on the BuyiPhone3GS website, where you check your eligibility, it only says replace a phone and doesn't say replace an iPhone 3G. Well, here it is for sure. Damn them!!!!!!!

O2 relenting a little, under public pressure.

Submitted by wannatalk on June 10, 2009 - 6:07am.
but not much!!!

Only really good if your a big payer!

http://shop.o2.co.uk/update/paymonth.html

Submitted by wannatalk on June 10, 2009 - 6:57am.
Just spoke with O2. Oh they are really twisting the knife.

So the new phone and software arrive next week. Bringing with it MMS, as we all know. And what have O2 done now? They are removing the unlimited texts bolt on!!!

So the maximum texts you get are 500, or 125 if it's made up all of MMS (1 MMS = 4 SMS)

Then they can gouge you for more money. I know they are a business and are no ones friend, but they are getting incredibly money grabbing over the iPhone now.

Think it's about time they lost the exclusivity. Get a bit of competition in the tariffs.

Submitted by utp504 on June 10, 2009 - 1:06pm.
Just read on AT&T website and also spoke with them on the phone about this. If you are not upgrade eligible, which most aren't, you will have to pay $599/$699 for the iphone3gs. However, even though that seems bad and many are thinking that this will be their cost, these prices are for the "No commitment pricing." Meaning that if you pay this you will not extend your 2-year contract. However, the part I just found out and confirmed is that you can get them for $399 (16gb) and $499 (32gb), IF, and this is the big if, you extend your 2-year contract.

This is great seeing as I did not want to spend $700 for this phone, I can somewhat deal with the $500 dollar price seeing as I have had to purchase replacement 3G phones due to cracked screen and water damage.

Also, however, you will have to most likely purchase from an AT&T store if you want the "early upgrade" prices of $399 and $499. I was told, and I think read on Apple's buyiphone3gs website, that the Apple stores will not be able to handle the early upgrades, only the no-commitment and the eligible upgrades.



For the article I read, go to this link: http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-pho...phone-info.jsp, scroll down to where is says "How much will I pay for iPhone 3G", click current AT&T customer.

Although this says it is for the iPhone 3G, they told me it will work for the 3Gs as well.

Also, it says this in the first column of the PDF you can download on the right of that same page.

Submitted by foamysking on June 10, 2009 - 1:34pm.
while yes this is true keep in mind this
att is charging us 200 for an early upgrade but the etf (early termination fee) at most is $175 per line
but every month you have your contract the price goes down $5 i got my 3g day one so now my etf is $115 (i confirmed this with att) so if i canceled service with att and started service again i would still be paying $85 less than the early upgrade

Submitted by utp504 on June 10, 2009 - 1:38pm.
Yeah, I have been thinking about this as well and weighing my options, and this may sound stupid to some, but I don't really want to cancel my contract and open a new one because I will lose my current number. I have had this number for many years and it is actually a T-Mobile number from when I went from AT&T to T-Mobile for 1 year just for the sidekick 2.
So, basically I will be paying the $499 for the early upgrade instead of $480 (adding tax to new purchase) for cancelation and new contract. And I am not including the new activation fee of $18.

EDIT:
And here is why, I had water damage on my iPhone 3G, and when I got a new one they felt bad and gave me the subsidized price again. This was done in February 2009, and even though I purchased the iPhone 3G in July 2008 (release day), they extended my contract. Therefor, my termination fee is $160, which is close to normal. So, I will pay $20 dollars more just to keep my number. LOL may sound dumb to some, but in my case, it is not a big dollar difference and I love my number LOL.

Submitted by foamysking on June 10, 2009 - 1:49pm.
yes a valid point but it would be nicer to just get the good pricing and only pay your current etf on top of it and still keep your number

and to top it all off att 3g coverage sux i still have a 100mi drive co connect to a 3g network but im paying an additional 10 bucks a month for something i cant use thanks att

Submitted by utp504 on June 10, 2009 - 1:52pm.
Yeah that really sucks big time.

long time AT&T subscriber?

Submitted by kkhsf on June 10, 2009 - 1:54pm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by utp504 View Post
Mine says I have to pay the 599/699 and am not eligible until 07/14/09. I purchased the 3G iPhone on the first day it released (standing inline and all) its just weird cuz you say your wife got hers a few weeks later and i got mine earlier and she is eligible for cheaper price. I dont get it but who knows at this point LOL. Also, I talked to someone from Apple and they said they weren't sure. I also called my local Apple store and they said that they aren't sure either but they will most likely know with in the next few days about the upgrade pricing.
I, too, got the 3G phone quite early, on Aug. 10th, and I was quoted the early upgrade price of $399 and $499 for the 16GB & 32 GB phones. I've been an AT&T mobile subscriber for many years, from before it was even Cingular and then the merger. What used to be called a "legacy" subscriber. I suspect that that may have something to do with the variation in upgrade price availability among all of us.

One thing I'm facing is the likelihood of needing to replace the battery in my 3G in the next few months. I'm beginning to notice it is not holding a charge as long as it did (and that wasn't great before as we all know). With the battery replacement charge plus the necessity of "renting" a phone from Apple for $29, that is nearly $100 right there. I have to factor that into my decision whether to get a 3GS or not. I'm going to wait until after the release of the 3.0 software and as I'm going to be out of the country all next month, nothing will get settled into August anyway. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Submitted by foamysking on June 10, 2009 - 1:58pm.
the apple care protection would cover the advance replacement phone and the battery provided there not physical or liquid damage (apple care does not cover those) and its only $69

Submitted by utp504 on June 10, 2009 - 2:05pm.
Wait, wait, wait...... Apple Care does cover water damage????? Damn..... LOL... I will definately be getting that then

Submitted by foamysking on June 10, 2009 - 2:13pm.
no it dosent cover water or physical damage but it does cover batteries and free advance replacement

Submitted by kkhsf on June 10, 2009 - 2:19pm.
Apple Care does not cover water damage or consumable batteries. It only covers batteries if they are faulty, not if they naturally begin to wear out, which they all do. it doesn't cover accidental damage either. what it seems to cover is if the iPhone is faulty in the second year. all iPhones are covered by a 1 year warranty. You must buy the Apple Care before your 1 year warranty is up, or you are out of luck. I just don't see it is worth it.
Another choice, but only at the time of purchase or right after, is to get a Square Trade warranty. It DOES cover accidental damage and possibly batteries, but you must buy it when the phone is new or within 30 days of purchase, as I recall. Read the fine print on any warranty before you buy.
Still, a new battery for my 10 month old 3G is $69, and the rental phone is $29, and that makes $100. I might as well put that $100 towards a new 3GS, I'm thinking...